| QUOTE (dg806 @ Feb 10 2004, 03:36 PM) | ||
I would think the average sedentary person would need this much........... |
Stop reading FLEX or anything associated with joe weider
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| Beyond Muscle Forums > Diet & Nutrition > protein |
| Posted by: Tubuku01 Feb 9 2004, 11:12 PM |
| Hello, all. Newbie here. Just wondering, I hear different opinions on the amount of protein per seving to take. Some say that taking more than 20g is a waste, some don't. I usually take two scoops of whey for a total of about 40g per serving twice a day. Would it be better to spread out the grams during the day, or is 40 too much or not enough? Thanks! i'm 5-8" 200lbs |
| Posted by: prolangtum Feb 9 2004, 11:23 PM |
| There are so many factors involved, it is near impossible to determine. Muscle mass, digestive trac health, fiber content, protein source, the list goes on. I will say though, you can definitely absorb more than 20 grams. I myself usually shoot for 50-75 grams per meal. |
| Posted by: shpongled Feb 10 2004, 12:58 AM |
| I get 20 g most meals, but in some meals 50-70 g. If you are taking large amounts, take slow release protein (like milk protein, casein) and less will be wasted. |
| Posted by: Sypher Feb 10 2004, 01:14 PM |
| How about the least amount per meal, what should you always try to shoot for no matter what? |
| Posted by: shpongled Feb 10 2004, 01:17 PM | ||
What I do is, take my bodyweight, subtract the g of protein I am getting from shakes, then divide that amount by four (for the other four meals), and then just make sure I get that much each meal. |
| Posted by: dg806 Feb 10 2004, 01:29 PM | ||
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| Posted by: shpongled Feb 10 2004, 01:32 PM |
| Studies on resistance training individuals shows no increase in protein synthesis beyond 1.8 g/kg (or .8 g/lb) of protein daily, and usually no benefit beyond 1.4 g/kg... of course, the subjects weren't on steroids, and probably assume only high quality/complete protein sources, but I still tend to think protein needs are overestimated. |
| Posted by: dg806 Feb 10 2004, 03:36 PM | ||
I would think the average sedentary person would need this much........... |
| Posted by: str8flexed Feb 10 2004, 03:56 PM | ||||
I'd say your basal protein intake should be more like 60% of that. |
| Posted by: str8flexed Feb 10 2004, 03:57 PM | ||||
Stop reading FLEX or anything associated with joe weider |
| Posted by: Tubuku01 Feb 10 2004, 07:06 PM |
| WOW! thanks for the info guys! So, if i understand it right, I'll shoot for 50g per servings, for a total of about 300g spread out throughout the day. On a seperate subject, I just received my s1+ today, and I'm sooooo psyched!! Awesome site! Once again, thank you all! |
| Posted by: William Slade Feb 10 2004, 08:20 PM | ||||||
lol, my flex sub just went out, looks like i'll actually have to go bye toilet paper now. |
| Posted by: Stay Puft Feb 10 2004, 09:20 PM |
| As far as protein intake is concern I make a point to get ~40% of my daily calories via protein, which works out to about 200-220g/day for my 158lbs. That is more of a ceiling value, as most days i would say I skirt 200g. |
| Posted by: Loki Feb 10 2004, 11:57 PM |
| The key thing with protein is that you hit your daily quota. Less important is how/when you reach it. If your goal is 300g of protein/day, 150g in the morning & 150g in the evening (purely in terms of providing aminos for growth-- I am not speaking in terms of satiety) is just as effective as 6x50g feedings. In fact, short-term protein shortages, followed by a larger, protein 'slizzam' (if you will ), has actually been demonstrated in studies to illicit a greater anabolic tissue-turnover response (1,2). A third study, has found that-- in terms of overall nitrogen retention levels-- it's total protein that matters; timing has very little-- if any-- effect on actual net leucine balance (3).Honestly, it's not like people first started getting ripped in the 20th Century, and-- last time I checked-- nobody was slamming Whey/Casein shakes every four hours in 4th Century A.D.. Get your protein. Don't worry about the timing; it's quantity that matters, baby. Refs: 1. Arnal MA, Mosoni L, Boirie Y, Gachon P, Genest M, Bayle G, Grizard J, Arnal M, Antoine JM, Beaufrere B, Mirand PP. Protein turnover modifications induced by the protein feeding pattern still persist after the end of the diets. American Journal of Physiology Endocrinology and Metabolism. 2000 May;278(5):E902-9. 2. Arnal MA, Mosoni L, Boirie Y, Houlier ML, Morin L, Verdier E, Ritz P, Antoine JM, Prugnaud J, Beaufrere B, Mirand PP. Protein pulse feeding improves protein retention in elderly women. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 1999 Jun;69(6):1202-8. 3. 2: Arnal MA, Mosoni L, Boirie Y, Houlier ML, Morin L, Verdier E, Ritz P, Antoine JM, Prugnaud J, Beaufrere B, Mirand PP. Protein feeding pattern does not affect protein retention in young women. Journal of Nutrition. 2000 Jul;130(7):1700-4. |
| Posted by: shpongled Feb 11 2004, 06:28 AM | ||||||
Yeah, most people only need 50-60 g, the average athlete maybe twice as much, and the average bodybuilder probably 3-4 times as much |
| Posted by: William Slade Feb 11 2004, 09:02 AM | ||||||||
Agreed. I find it a tad amusing most people have higher protein intakes while bulking than while cutting. I suppose there are reasons, but I disagree with them. |
| Posted by: Loki Feb 11 2004, 09:28 AM |
| Agreed. If you're bulking, you should never be getting more than 30% of your caloric intake from protein. Cutting is a different story, but-- given the innumerable amounts of anabolic benefits one receives from a.) insulin (the most indirectly-anabolic natural hormone the body has) & b.) prostaglandins snd cytokines, coupled with the fact that both glucose AND FAs are protein-sparing (in any sort of diet), means that a bulking diet should never be structured around protein, but rather, the other two macronutrients. |
| Posted by: Stay Puft Feb 11 2004, 11:48 AM | ||
Interesting. Very Interesting. Your opinion is that 50/30/20 C/P/F is an ideal ratio for a bulk? I seem to get the feeling that one would be more likely to gain fat on such a diet, when contasted with a 40-40-20, but I must be wrong. Its all about energy, so it comparing one to the other, overall calories will determine fat gain, it must. Carbohydrate timing would be even more critical, it would seem to me, in this type of diet(50-30-20). That is alot of carbs to eat in the morning, and specifically in the workout window. What are others current bulking ratios, or any additional thoughts on this? |
| Posted by: Loki Feb 11 2004, 12:17 PM |
| Actually, I think a 50/25/25 (if not 60/20/20) is about the best macronutrient ratio for a reasonable bulking diet, but, whatever... In terms of weight gain, it's all about compromises & timing, not to mention a host of other factors like natural insulin sensitivity, thyroid levels, fiber-ratios/% and hormonal balance. Pure calories also matters quite a bit too, as does the form(s) of training one is involved in. Most are wary of higher-CHO diets for the wrong reasons. What you interpret as a risk of 'fat gain' is kind of bullshit; it's the risk that with chronically elevated insulin levels, controlling appetite becomes more of an issue, and over-consuming calories in such a scenario isn't. See, if you're bulking with a 800 calorie surplus, eating a 50/30/20, and just have terribly sucky genetics, you'll probably gain fat, in such a case, I might point an individual towards something more IsoCaloric, but-- first-- I'd recommend changes to a.) total daily calories ingested & b.) training. I mean, a few sprints every morning & a couple modifications to intensity & complexity of lifts can go a long way in terms of enhancing nutrient partitioning, as can centering carb-consumption in/around workouts. Plus, you also have to distinguish between 'max gains' and 'good (re: lean) gains' because, as I've said countless times, you can't have both without some serious drug use. It all brings us back to compromise, crafty dieting/training techniques, and a healthy dose of willpower... |
| Posted by: Stay Puft Feb 11 2004, 07:18 PM | ||||
The majority of the diets that I see carefully planned out are indeed extremely high in protein, and contain much fewer carbohydrates than you would imply are optimal. As a result I have shaped my diet accordinly, and intrestingly enough I have always felt like, "I should be growing faster!". I would be safe to assume I have average muscle building genes, maybe average is slightly modest. I would attribute everything I have (not much at that) to hard work, and dedication.
You are suggesting that muscle gains would be inhanced by sprints, or some form of interval running? I read a post of your on avant about your feeling on cardio and you converted my to a sprinter(along with the insight of others).
What exactly were you considering? Thanks in advance for all your input, it is appreciated by many. |
| Posted by: Loki Feb 11 2004, 07:47 PM | ||||||
Yes, but most don't realize that natural testosterone levels are optimized in a diet that is higher CHO/FA, and lower in protein. Most don't realize that high-protein diets are detrimental to overall hormonal anabolism when other macronutrients are shirked on. Also, consuming shitloads of protein generally just leads to gluconeogensis & whatnot, which I consider far from ideal, regardless of your goals (since your body has to do something with all those excess AAs).
You don't see too many scrawny sprinters, do you? Genetics and drug use notwithstanding, the mitochondrial adaptions that sprinting forces in skeletal muscle are worth the exertion alone-- and that's just the tip of the ice-berg. All that AMPK activation is good shit too...
More compound lifts (Cleans, DLs, Snatches) &/or more whole-body training frequency & volume (a la HST). Both methods of strength training enhance nutrient disposal & insulin sensitivity significantly... |
| Posted by: Stay Puft Feb 11 2004, 08:10 PM | ||
Excellent point. Could you point me in the direction regarding some info on a light sprinting protocol to maximize anabolism, or perhaps a few suggestions off the top of your head. From what I re-call I think that Str8flxd is doing interval sprinting 50m in length(X10 if memory serves me correct), with rest inbetween. Should this rest consist of a light jog/snails-pace walk/standing around or somewhere in between? Thanks again for all the help! |
| Posted by: Loki Feb 11 2004, 08:40 PM |
| After discussing with Spook & doing a lot of research on it myself, I've come to the conclusion that what he advocates (sprint volume with a balance between intense exertion/rest) is ideal if partitioning & aesthetic improvements in body composition are your #1 priority. With that said, on non-lifting days, I just do as many 100m sprints as I can (@ about 90-95% max exertion) with as much rest as I need in between. I usually get somewhere in the area of 20. The goal isn't to puke or wear yourself ragged (like, towards the end, i'll take like 2-3 minutes in between sprints), it's just to create that cellular energy/ATP debt over...and over...and over... Tonite I was kicking ass...lol...it was glorious-- and since we have an indoor track, all the girls doing the cardio machines got to see how real cardio is done...  That's what keys adaptation. Ever since I started sprinting, I picked up some of the sickest calf-vascularity I have ever seen on anyone... On lifting days, I usually just do 8-10 sprints in the morning or evening, well away from my actual liftin sessions. These are more like 80% exertion wind sprints, with full recovery. Just get that whole body churning. Cheers.  |
| Posted by: Arbitro Feb 12 2004, 09:56 AM |
| FWIW... Bryan Haycock of HST (who is pretty knowledgable IMO) recommends 1x BW in grams of protein, 20-30% of daily cals for fats, and the balance carbs depending on your goals. IOW, the protein amount is relatively fixed, and the fat is a %age, regardless. Depending on BW, the protein %age really comes out to ~20-30% of total calories - pretty low when compared to "traditional" BB thinking. |
| Posted by: str8flexed Feb 12 2004, 10:55 AM |
| Loki we should hang out and talk shop sometime I have yet to disagree in the least with anything that has been said |
| Posted by: shpongled Feb 12 2004, 11:01 AM |
| Loki, a few questions - -How long does a typical sprint session usually last for you? -Do you ever purposefully take a day off of both sprinting and lifting entirely? I am currently using a 3 on/1 off lifting split, thinking about doing some high intensity cardio on off days. I have a crappy treadmill, and on the max speed, generally last 60-90 seconds and first and then 30-60 seconds when I get fatigued. |
| Posted by: Loki Feb 12 2004, 07:38 PM |
1. Layne, great minds think alike (although you don't seem to have quite the 'spark of madness' that I've got goin on these days...  ). But yeah, any time man, stop by Boston, and it's always B.Y.O.B. in this S.O.B. (or we could try something else, you know, that would actually work, if you're actually being serious...lol  )2. Typical session = 20-30 mins. If I'm feeling really hardcore, I'll but 40 mins. worth. I will never go longer than that... 3. No, I don't take days off unless I'm a.) sick, b.) ridiculously behind on work, or c.) end up so retarded-wasted that I can't make it to the gym (and even then, I'll still usually try to train somehow...lol ) |