I am 22y/o, 170lb, 9% bf 3 years serious lifting and dieting

i pretty sure i want to do a prohormone cycle Ive been doing research for a few months now, Epi/Havoc caught my eye, from what i have read this is a pretty good product...Questions:

1.PCT: What do i need for this...is it possible to stay on the legal side of things? or do i need clomid? (i want err on the side of caution)

2.What have your experiences been with havoc? From what i read its a great starter cycle...opinine pliz

3. Why do so many people run nolva for PCT? This only protects against gyno...?

Also i read somewhere that at low dosages (recommended on the bottle) it cannot aromatize but at higher doses it does....what is up with this? how is that possible?

Havoc was my 1st cycle and I loved it. Gained 11 lbs of lean mass and kept 9 after pct and kept all the strength gains. Sides were some dried joints and hairloss I had in week 4 at 40mg but I am prone to male pattern baldness.

You should run Cycle Support on cycle to help protect the liver and blood pressure make sure you pre-load it 10-14 days before starting the cycle.

For pct Post Cycle Support was created by thesinner for pct for this compound with that being said I also think you should at least have Nolva on hand in case problems come up it probally would not be needed. The only other thing you could do is add some Lean Xtreme startingon day 15 of pct. You could also run some I3C and 6 oxo which you would start in the 4th week of pct and taper the dose down.

All in All a good and fairly mild cycle. Best of luck and let me know if I can help

You mentioned hair loss; how bad was it and did it stop after you completed your cycle?

I am contemplating either 3-ad or havoc and using a PCT after for either one. Right now I have a bottle of 3-ad so I will give it a shot and see what happens.

My hair thinned out a bit it was noticable. It did not get worse after the cycle but if you are prone to hair loss Havoc/Epi are not good choices

nobody has anything else?

havoc/epi are solid for a first cycle... if you eat heavy and train hard, 10lbs is a very attainable goal

most people use nolva b/c it is the cheapest available SERM... and it's not used just for gyno. SERMS cause a surge in LH which stimulates the body to produce test which is exactly what you wan't coming off cycle

If you don't wan't to use a SERM then i'd go with Post Cycle Support by AI... bloodwork has shown it to be pretty effective for PCT after milder compounds like havoc

i appreciate the info, would it be stupid/redundant to do both post cycle support and nolva?

NO...IMHO a serm like nolva shud always be used for PCT when using PH\AAS.

Their will be sum that disagree... if i where u dun listen2 them.

u can use a serm as a standalone for PCT or u can use both a AI and SERM together during PCT which is what i do.


PCT (a example from my experience from what ive used so far)
WEEK 1/2/3/4 Nolva - 40/30/20/10
WEEK 1/2/3/4 Novadex XT 1/2/3/4/ x caps

No taking Cycle Support while taking a SERM is a good idea it provides liver protection and a SERM can be tough on the liver also

How tall are you? If you're 22 and 170, you might have a very slight bild if you're taller or a more solid build if you're short. based on your current age and weight, I might not want to delve into this sort of compound just yet.

At 170, I would bet you could probably pack on quite a bit more mass before resorting to anabolics. You'll get bigger faster going the anabolics route, but in the long run, you'll do much better coming close to maxing out your genetic potential naturally...and THEN using these kinds of compounds to push yourself to the next level that you might not have been able to reach otherwise.

yea, im 5'10" with very small joints..my fingers go all the way around my wrist and then to the first knuckle, i started at 140 (12 % bf)

when i say i have been lifting and dieting seriously for three years i really do mean it, i count calories, protien and carbs every day, dont skip meals (6-7 a day) or workouts, dont overtrain, get enough rest...

the thing is, my gains after the frist year were PAINFULLY slow, i bulked last winter and gained up to 185 but it was mostly fat...i ate super clean (all chicken turkey lean beef, brown rice and oatmeal, literally), im just frustrated with such slow results, im sure im not at my potential but ive waited a couple years to try anabolics, so i really want to now...

i mean does it really sound like that bad of an idea?

edit: Another thing is, i dont want to be supraphysiologically huge, my end goal is to be BIG but not insane massive (pro) its just not a look that i like. 200 i think is my target cut weight, thats pretty damn big but i dont think it is as big as i could possibly get.

Diet sounds good, but how many calories were you consuming, since you were gaining so slowly despite all the effort? Not eating enough to allow you to grow may well be the culprit of why you've been such a hard gainer. You might be able to fix that issue by adjusting your calories and then saving the ph/ps route for later.

i was eating 3600 calories...i went from 167 to 185, so i was definitely above maintenance calories, just when i cut back down it was mostly fat and water. I prolly gained 5 lbs of good weight in 7 months...pleh.

Eating the clean as hell diet you described earlier you gained almost nothing but fat and water? Something's got to be amiss here.

i dunno, its like somethings missing, it makes no sense to me...i just feel like i gain at a certain rate and its really slow...

its like if i eat too much my body just adds fat.